This is the most compassionate accounting of the appalling deeds of a lost soul that I could ever imagine — more so than I could muster, for sure. I believe your closing prayer has already been answered, Amy.
Thank you for this, Amy. This is good and useful (and really confusing) information because lately it feels like the older I get, the more I realize that what I used to know and believe is completely turned on its head. Luckily I never read a Dobson book either but I think many of his beliefs ran as an undercurrent through my early parenting and messages I received from the church. I wish I could have a "do over" with my early parenting but here we are.
I feel the same way. It is such a strong undercurrent, in our churches AND our politics, which we're seeing so clearly now. I was so confused by so many Evangelicals endorsing Trump in 2016, but I now know that this was the underlying ideology all along.
PS I hope you know that we look up to you, A, and your family! We hope to have the kinds of relationships with our kids that you have with yours 💛
I never knew Dobson was basically following a Nazi sympathizer.
I never read a word Dobson wrote and only saw him occasionally on the news, But when we lived in Colorado I knew someone who knew Dobson.
In speaking about him one day he said, "You know, that son of a bitch really believes what he's saying."
To which I responded, "Sincerity doesn't make him any less of a son of a bitch'"
Maybe I should be more charitable toward the dead, but there are far too many still suffering from his teachings for me to find charity right now. All those people he harmed are the ones deserving it.
This sounds like a conversation my grandfather would have recounted to me! I don’t know if it’s better or worse that he actually believed it. Pretty awful either way.
I remember smacking my young son’s 1 year old hand while telling him ‘don’t hit your sister.’
That was my wake up call.
My in laws basically worship him to this day. I hit my beautiful, perfect babies at first because they told me I had to. My MIL hit my oldest the first time when she was SEVEN months old. For squirming on the changing table. I stood there, in shock, not daring to say anything because you don’t dare question authority.
My FIL almost seemed giddy when he got to discipline them. Then we discovered gentle parenting and stopped it all. We sat down our beautiful children, all very young at the time, and earnestly asked for their forgiveness, admitting we were wrong, and haven’t laid a disciplinary hand on them in many years, nor have we allowed anyone else to.
My in-laws were very disappointed in us when we told them they could no longer hit their grandchildren. They listened, but my FIL, who is a huge Dobson fanboy, right up until we had to cut them off would eagerly look for something, anything, he could hold my kids accountable for. He lived for it. I don’t doubt he loves my children, but he has built his entire identity around being an authoritarian parent. It’s only devolved tremendously, and we had to make the decision to remove them from our lives because now even our kids see what they are (which is beyond heartbreaking) and the older ones want nothing to do with them. Since retiring and no longer having to interact with people with opposing views, they have become so much worse.
And it all started because we would no longer allow them to hit our kids.
That is WILD to me.
It’s rough to quantify how much James Dobson stole from so many. I wish my words and wishes for his afterlife were as kind as yours, but I am definitely not there yet.
That grandparents would rather hit their grandchildren than be in relationship with them (and you!) is absolutely wild. I’m so sorry. But good for you for protecting your kids— you will never regret that decision.
Zach was the youth pastor at a tiny SBC church in West Texas when we were in college and people spanked each other’s kids. I vividly remember having a conversation when we were 19 or 20 about how no one would ever spank our (future) children. The idea of community spanking is still absolutely horrifying to me.
Wow. Didn't think I'd ever see "community spanking" placed with "church" unless it was Church of the flying spaghetti monster. 🤔 and my sencond FIN was a preacher in a tiny Alabama Nazerene church...
Ok, this explains a lot!!! Thank you, Amy! I am just now beginning to understand more about some of the more dangerous evangelical church psyches. I was fortunate to grow up in a church that didn’t espouse this Dobson guy (who I didn’t even know about until reading about his death on Substack). The church I grew up in was the one that the Church of Christ member who married a Southern Baptist member joined because their churches ostracized them for marrying outside of their churches. Our church threw a baby shower for our pastor’s daughter, who wound up pregnant as a teen. (She did not marry the guy, nor did anyone expect her to). Our pastors changed throughout the years- the congregation chose them within a structured process, as it was not an unaffiliated church and had guardrails against following a leader instead of God. Fast forward to me as a young mom with an awesome husband. When it became apparent that our family needed one of us to be home with our child because we abhorred day care, we made the decision that I would stay home because, quite frankly, as a public school teacher, my job made less money. We had been trading childcare duties by working opposite hours (no family nearby to help), but because we both ended up with day jobs we had tried day care. Anyway, since I started staying home with the kids I met lots of women also staying home. We shared a lot of the same values, and many are still close friends today. I now understand a lot more about how some of our child rearing values were the same (for the record only a couple believed in spanking kids) but looking back I feel certain that many believe in evangelical complimentarianism (this is a new word for me- I think I’m using it right). So whereas my husband and I decided I should stay home because I made less money, I’m pretty sure for them them staying home was a decision which was already made for them, as having the husband stay home would probably never have been considered. Of all of these family friends only 1-2 are not Trump voters and only 1-2 would consider changing their vote from Republican in the future. I now think the delineating factor in this is the concept of complimentarianism in an evangelical sense.
You’re using it correctly! An Evangelical pastor (who shall not be named) is famous for saying that being a stay at home dad is a sin worthy of church discipline because he is not upholding his duties as head of household and provider. Your church of outsiders sounds absolutely lovely. I vividly remember a Sunday School teacher in my teen church being disgusted that someone had suggested throwing a baby shower for one of my friends who was pregnant at sixteen— that the church would be condoning her premarital sex. What is wrong with people??
Right? I really had no idea how draconian things were because I had a good church growing up, a diverse and friendly and open church. I see now that this is not always a common thing experience. Although conservative, my parents were accepting and open to everyone. We had friends of all faiths.
When I taught school I had a stay at home dad who was one of my room parents. He was great. He said his job title was “domestic engineer.” How heavy handed preachers can not value (what I believe) to be the most noble and influential of all jobs- parenting in a very present way- is beyond me. Even though I am from Bible Belt west Texas I naively have underestimated the pull and power of patriarchal Christianity. I appreciate having my eyes opened so I can understand it more, and understand the roots of concentrating power in our state. Loved your article!
Wow - this cut me to the core and I hope that I can find the same depth of love and compassion for those that have caused harm to my family from their toxic teachings and recklessness.
Dobson, upon his death, “is being surprised by Love. I do not know if discovering the vastness of God's love is hell for him, or heaven. Perhaps a little of both. That's above my pay grade. But Divine Love has him now.”
Horrified Dobson parent here - he was promoted as the expert on doing the best for your challenging child and we were too vulnerable to this misinformation which the church thoroughly supported. Thank you for your words Amy. Invaluable insights
Yes, he was distributing this information to millions of parents without accountability for how it would be implemented. One would hope that churches would have done a better job of evaluating his methods and providing resources to parents, but I found that the church leaders were zealous for this type of parenting within their congregations. It still fits with so many Christians’ worldview: violence and suppression.
Thank you for your good reporting. We need this dialouge in society. Dobson following Paul and Hitler makes sense of all the hellish selfishness.. It tracks. Also, Paul says singleness ifls a gift because he is obviously a psycho. And he surely is a women-hating man.
Dobson was a major part of the parenting classes at the church I attended during the 1970s. I was in my twenties and had been a mother for over three years by then (firstborn, 17). I, too, look back and have regrets, although I hardly ever spanked (but I did do it once in a while). It's awful to think about, and I thank God my own children grew up knowing better with their own children. Good word, Amy.
There is no doubt that Dobson was conservative and evangelical, but I find it very difficult to believe that he followed the teachings of Paul Popenoe. Do you have any evidence apart from coincidental similarity that Dobson was actually influenced by Popenoe?
Thanks. I had no idea. My own experience of Dobson's influence certainly had no overtones of eugenics. What I noticed was an increasingly political tone to Focus on the Family broadcasts following his serving on the U. S. Attorney General's Commission on Pornography. Despite being at the time a conservative evangelical Christian, I believed that the moral issues facing America had spiritual causes requiring spiritual remedies. I still do not believe that social policy or law are effective means of dealing with moral failings (although they clearly must be involved when moral failings lead to harming people). Anyway, I stopped listening to Focus on the Family because of its increasing politicization. My kids, however, continued to enjoy Adventures in Odessy for several years afterward.
Now I hesitate to identify myself as conservative or evangelical. I am conservative the way G. K. Chesterton was. It would be hard to find someone more opposed to eugenics than Chesterton. He opposed it when it was quite fashionable.
Some. I'll read more later. I did read Dare to Discipline many years ago, and I did not get from it what you seem to have got from it without reading it.
I couldn’t find any sources talking about Dobson being mentored or influenced by Popenoe. I am not a fan of Dobson, and I find his teachings disgusting, but I’d also like to confirm the facts. Can you help?
This is the most compassionate accounting of the appalling deeds of a lost soul that I could ever imagine — more so than I could muster, for sure. I believe your closing prayer has already been answered, Amy.
Thank you, Jim. It's the only way I can make sense of it all.
Thank you for this, Amy. This is good and useful (and really confusing) information because lately it feels like the older I get, the more I realize that what I used to know and believe is completely turned on its head. Luckily I never read a Dobson book either but I think many of his beliefs ran as an undercurrent through my early parenting and messages I received from the church. I wish I could have a "do over" with my early parenting but here we are.
I feel the same way. It is such a strong undercurrent, in our churches AND our politics, which we're seeing so clearly now. I was so confused by so many Evangelicals endorsing Trump in 2016, but I now know that this was the underlying ideology all along.
PS I hope you know that we look up to you, A, and your family! We hope to have the kinds of relationships with our kids that you have with yours 💛
Thank you for that. 💗
I never knew Dobson was basically following a Nazi sympathizer.
I never read a word Dobson wrote and only saw him occasionally on the news, But when we lived in Colorado I knew someone who knew Dobson.
In speaking about him one day he said, "You know, that son of a bitch really believes what he's saying."
To which I responded, "Sincerity doesn't make him any less of a son of a bitch'"
Maybe I should be more charitable toward the dead, but there are far too many still suffering from his teachings for me to find charity right now. All those people he harmed are the ones deserving it.
This sounds like a conversation my grandfather would have recounted to me! I don’t know if it’s better or worse that he actually believed it. Pretty awful either way.
I could probably be your great grandfather. Marine Corps Vietnam veteran and only able to post courtesy of you.
Thanks
I remembered that you were a Marine! And I’m thankful for your comment 😊
I remember smacking my young son’s 1 year old hand while telling him ‘don’t hit your sister.’
That was my wake up call.
My in laws basically worship him to this day. I hit my beautiful, perfect babies at first because they told me I had to. My MIL hit my oldest the first time when she was SEVEN months old. For squirming on the changing table. I stood there, in shock, not daring to say anything because you don’t dare question authority.
My FIL almost seemed giddy when he got to discipline them. Then we discovered gentle parenting and stopped it all. We sat down our beautiful children, all very young at the time, and earnestly asked for their forgiveness, admitting we were wrong, and haven’t laid a disciplinary hand on them in many years, nor have we allowed anyone else to.
My in-laws were very disappointed in us when we told them they could no longer hit their grandchildren. They listened, but my FIL, who is a huge Dobson fanboy, right up until we had to cut them off would eagerly look for something, anything, he could hold my kids accountable for. He lived for it. I don’t doubt he loves my children, but he has built his entire identity around being an authoritarian parent. It’s only devolved tremendously, and we had to make the decision to remove them from our lives because now even our kids see what they are (which is beyond heartbreaking) and the older ones want nothing to do with them. Since retiring and no longer having to interact with people with opposing views, they have become so much worse.
And it all started because we would no longer allow them to hit our kids.
That is WILD to me.
It’s rough to quantify how much James Dobson stole from so many. I wish my words and wishes for his afterlife were as kind as yours, but I am definitely not there yet.
That grandparents would rather hit their grandchildren than be in relationship with them (and you!) is absolutely wild. I’m so sorry. But good for you for protecting your kids— you will never regret that decision.
Zach was the youth pastor at a tiny SBC church in West Texas when we were in college and people spanked each other’s kids. I vividly remember having a conversation when we were 19 or 20 about how no one would ever spank our (future) children. The idea of community spanking is still absolutely horrifying to me.
That’s disgusting! So glad you broke the cycle
Wow. Didn't think I'd ever see "community spanking" placed with "church" unless it was Church of the flying spaghetti monster. 🤔 and my sencond FIN was a preacher in a tiny Alabama Nazerene church...
Thank you for writing this. ❤️
Thank you. This should be circulating far and wide.
Thank you, Anni!
Ok, this explains a lot!!! Thank you, Amy! I am just now beginning to understand more about some of the more dangerous evangelical church psyches. I was fortunate to grow up in a church that didn’t espouse this Dobson guy (who I didn’t even know about until reading about his death on Substack). The church I grew up in was the one that the Church of Christ member who married a Southern Baptist member joined because their churches ostracized them for marrying outside of their churches. Our church threw a baby shower for our pastor’s daughter, who wound up pregnant as a teen. (She did not marry the guy, nor did anyone expect her to). Our pastors changed throughout the years- the congregation chose them within a structured process, as it was not an unaffiliated church and had guardrails against following a leader instead of God. Fast forward to me as a young mom with an awesome husband. When it became apparent that our family needed one of us to be home with our child because we abhorred day care, we made the decision that I would stay home because, quite frankly, as a public school teacher, my job made less money. We had been trading childcare duties by working opposite hours (no family nearby to help), but because we both ended up with day jobs we had tried day care. Anyway, since I started staying home with the kids I met lots of women also staying home. We shared a lot of the same values, and many are still close friends today. I now understand a lot more about how some of our child rearing values were the same (for the record only a couple believed in spanking kids) but looking back I feel certain that many believe in evangelical complimentarianism (this is a new word for me- I think I’m using it right). So whereas my husband and I decided I should stay home because I made less money, I’m pretty sure for them them staying home was a decision which was already made for them, as having the husband stay home would probably never have been considered. Of all of these family friends only 1-2 are not Trump voters and only 1-2 would consider changing their vote from Republican in the future. I now think the delineating factor in this is the concept of complimentarianism in an evangelical sense.
You’re using it correctly! An Evangelical pastor (who shall not be named) is famous for saying that being a stay at home dad is a sin worthy of church discipline because he is not upholding his duties as head of household and provider. Your church of outsiders sounds absolutely lovely. I vividly remember a Sunday School teacher in my teen church being disgusted that someone had suggested throwing a baby shower for one of my friends who was pregnant at sixteen— that the church would be condoning her premarital sex. What is wrong with people??
Right? I really had no idea how draconian things were because I had a good church growing up, a diverse and friendly and open church. I see now that this is not always a common thing experience. Although conservative, my parents were accepting and open to everyone. We had friends of all faiths.
When I taught school I had a stay at home dad who was one of my room parents. He was great. He said his job title was “domestic engineer.” How heavy handed preachers can not value (what I believe) to be the most noble and influential of all jobs- parenting in a very present way- is beyond me. Even though I am from Bible Belt west Texas I naively have underestimated the pull and power of patriarchal Christianity. I appreciate having my eyes opened so I can understand it more, and understand the roots of concentrating power in our state. Loved your article!
Wow - this cut me to the core and I hope that I can find the same depth of love and compassion for those that have caused harm to my family from their toxic teachings and recklessness.
Dobson, upon his death, “is being surprised by Love. I do not know if discovering the vastness of God's love is hell for him, or heaven. Perhaps a little of both. That's above my pay grade. But Divine Love has him now.”
Horrified Dobson parent here - he was promoted as the expert on doing the best for your challenging child and we were too vulnerable to this misinformation which the church thoroughly supported. Thank you for your words Amy. Invaluable insights
Yes, he was distributing this information to millions of parents without accountability for how it would be implemented. One would hope that churches would have done a better job of evaluating his methods and providing resources to parents, but I found that the church leaders were zealous for this type of parenting within their congregations. It still fits with so many Christians’ worldview: violence and suppression.
Thank you so much for writing this. Such a great deep dive ❤️
Thank you for your good reporting. We need this dialouge in society. Dobson following Paul and Hitler makes sense of all the hellish selfishness.. It tracks. Also, Paul says singleness ifls a gift because he is obviously a psycho. And he surely is a women-hating man.
Dobson was a major part of the parenting classes at the church I attended during the 1970s. I was in my twenties and had been a mother for over three years by then (firstborn, 17). I, too, look back and have regrets, although I hardly ever spanked (but I did do it once in a while). It's awful to think about, and I thank God my own children grew up knowing better with their own children. Good word, Amy.
There is no doubt that Dobson was conservative and evangelical, but I find it very difficult to believe that he followed the teachings of Paul Popenoe. Do you have any evidence apart from coincidental similarity that Dobson was actually influenced by Popenoe?
Hi Chip. Dobson worked directly for and was mentored by Popenoe. You can read more about it here: https://open.substack.com/pub/strongwilled/p/chapter-9-children-of-the-positive?r=27dfn3&utm_medium=ios&shareImageVariant=overlay
Thanks. I had no idea. My own experience of Dobson's influence certainly had no overtones of eugenics. What I noticed was an increasingly political tone to Focus on the Family broadcasts following his serving on the U. S. Attorney General's Commission on Pornography. Despite being at the time a conservative evangelical Christian, I believed that the moral issues facing America had spiritual causes requiring spiritual remedies. I still do not believe that social policy or law are effective means of dealing with moral failings (although they clearly must be involved when moral failings lead to harming people). Anyway, I stopped listening to Focus on the Family because of its increasing politicization. My kids, however, continued to enjoy Adventures in Odessy for several years afterward.
Now I hesitate to identify myself as conservative or evangelical. I am conservative the way G. K. Chesterton was. It would be hard to find someone more opposed to eugenics than Chesterton. He opposed it when it was quite fashionable.
The more I read about Popenoe, the more Dobson's politics and conservative activism made sense to me. Let me know what you think after you read it!
Did you read the article and linked references, Chip?
Some. I'll read more later. I did read Dare to Discipline many years ago, and I did not get from it what you seem to have got from it without reading it.
Hi I love this and Zach I saw that I should message you for free subscription
I couldn’t find any sources talking about Dobson being mentored or influenced by Popenoe. I am not a fan of Dobson, and I find his teachings disgusting, but I’d also like to confirm the facts. Can you help?
I would start with the Strongwilled chapter I reference in the article. You can click the image and it will take you there. Hope that helps!
Many thanks - very helpful