I believe that God respects peoples decision. Second Kings dhows us that the king violated the laws of God, the people suffered; when the king obeyed God’s laws, the people prospered. The Lord gives us clear guidance, but if we choose to ignore or disobey it, He allows the consequence of our decision to correct us. Consequences are great teachers.
I believe this is the correct answer, but I’ve never heard it satisfyingly extended to non-human-caused suffering. The most I hear is “viruses and cancer and hurricanes and dementia exist because adam and eve ate the apple”, and I really feel like a reasonable response to that is: why were those things a consequence? They don’t follow causally, which to me means it was a choice made by God. Why did he make viruses? Why do our minds break? Why do our pets get sick?
I don't think we can draw a straight line from Eve to cancer and hurricanes, especially since I believe the story of Adam and Eve is meant to be a non-literal representation of humanity's propensity to choose our own way rather than God's. And since we all choose our own way to some extent (some more than others), the world and everything in it are decaying--our bodies included.
Thanks for the responses, I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. As a physicist we study the universe pretty matter-of-factly, but there are things like “entropy” that feel weirdly direct in a metaphysical way. “The amount of disorder can only increase, always”. That feels like what we mean when you say we live in a decaying world. I wonder if it was like this when it was created, or if it “fell” at some point, and if God’s plan is to change that completely in the end.
I think you’d enjoy Thomas J Oord. He discusses this very topic in his book Death of omnipotence. He doesn’t believe God is all powerful, but rather all loving which is why he can’t just over power and over rule everything, everyone, and every situation. It’s not that he chooses to withhold his power. It’s that he can’t do anything unloving, like go against our free will to make decisions. Anyways, it’s an interesting concept and something to make you think!
Tom is great and has become a friend! I've read a bunch of his stuff and we end up diverging a little bit in how we try to explain it, but I completely agree with his proposition that love is God's central characteristic. I'm grateful for him and his work.
This post really resonated with me Zach! My Bible study group just finished studying through The Sermon on the Mount (your series and the Bible Project series played prominent roles!), and the way Jesus ends the Sermon seems to be exactly what you're talking about. There are two ways/paths/roads you can choose to take, one leads to life, he's not talking about heaven, but the kind of Spirit-empowered life he describes in the Sermon and lives out in his own life; and one that leads to destruction, not what we think of as hell, but ruin, pain, and the destruction of shalom. There are two kinds of trees to be seen, one that produces good fruit which leads to right relationships and flourishing life for all, the Fruit of the Spirit, and one that produces rotten fruit, the antithesis of the Fruit of the Spirit, oppression, greed, hate, the devaluing of people and flourishing life for few. And there are two houses one can build, one built on the solid foundation of the way of Jesus; love, compassion, justice, generosity, peace, which will stand because it is Spirit-empowered and leads to God's shalom, and one that is built on the crumbling foundation of selfishness, greed, power-seeking, and oppression which leads to chaos and the destruction of shalom. If God has chosen to "rule and reign" in his creation THROUGH image-bearing humanity (Genesis 1 and 2), then these choices are of paramount importance and they have consequences, as we see throughout the biblical story. Thank you for your voice and your encouragement. You are a voice I can trust to always point me toward the Way of Jesus!
My Friend, you speak my mind on this. The old, old saw applies. "We are God's hands and God's voice." If we fail to follow the Spirit's lead in all things, the fault is with us. Because God always offers us the grace and the gifts to do what needs to be done.
Zach - I really like your point about “subverting” worldly power. The idea of helping to mend the world is also a reflection of God’s creativity I believe. Takes so much more to put the works back together than to simply burn it all down.
This is a very interesting breakdown on the subject of free-will. I do think this is a valid point. The only question I would have regarding God being all powerful is not why does he let people do bad things to other people(this is the free-will part although the people being hurt did not choose the consequences of others actions), but if God is all powerful and can use that power to create why does he allow people/children especially, to die of diseases like cancer. If he is all powerful and chooses to not only heal said humans but allows them to become sick to begin with where is his goodness and compassion?
It's a fair question. I think God causing any human behavior (making someone do good or preventing someone from doing bad) would be a violation of how God has setup the world--how God let's us all choose.
I don’t think there’s much comfort in it but could the image of the sacrificial lamb be aligned with innocents suffering? “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us…”Could it be that human suffering ultimately takes away the sins of the world in ways only God can see? But, suffering,witnessed by others, shifts our view and brings about his kingdom in ways that we find hard to measure?
Zach...great article as always. It reminded me of a period of time when I needed certainty the most and came across a book about God's sovereignty. I was unlearned and naive, and didn't realize there were different types of thought within the Christian church. This was pure Calvinism, but I didn't know that. In this book, every single thing that happens in only through God's perfect will, so even horrible tragedies had a specific purpose...whether only happened because God suddenly allowed a raindrop, etc. It actually made me feel safer for awhile. But it was a trick of the mind. It's so weird to think about that now.
I've read books like that too. In fact, I believed them for awhile, but that all changed when I had to counsel people going through some of the most difficult things imaginable. At that point, it became untenable to tell people "God caused this" because I just didn't believe it anymore.
I applaud your logic and reasoning. Thank you my brother in Christ. I always appreciate your insight and wisdom and share it as best as I can. A true “Shalom” to you.
Years ago I heard it explained like this…as a parent you are in charge of your kids but are you in control? Can you control how they behave in public or the choices they make when they are away from you? No. But you are in charge - meaning you’re involved in their lives, you want the best for them, you work to teach them and hold them accountable for their choices and actions but you cannot control what they do. This idea has really helped me make sense of the world and my own life. Thank you for digging into this even deeper.
We need to grasp this truth otherwise we attribute to God that which was never meant to be associated with him. We justify our bad behavior and apathy because we think wrongly and write everything off as “God’s perfect plan”. It’s so frustrating.
Thank you for this insight, it's always nice to hear perspectives on our agency in this world, because its always a struggle to square.
I cannot help but take great umbrage with the excerpt you shared of Brian Zahnd, however. That notion that we are solely responsible for morality and of Christian exceptionalism comes off at best painfully pessimistic on human nature, and myopic and racist at worse. There is such a variety of beliefs around the world, many older than Christianity, and it is absurd to state that only ours teaches compassion and morality. At our best and as individuals, we are agents for good certainly, but so often when Christianity has manifested as institutional power, from the crusades 1200 years ago to the modern American state, faith has been wielded as a club for oppression and consolidation, and as a shield against retribution. I cannot know from the excerpt whether any of this is addressed, or nuance given to these beliefs, but it's disappointing to take his world view at face value.
I hear your pushback, but it's important to note that Zahnd is contrasting early forms of pagan religion (which frequently centered worship on things like human sacrifice to appease gods, infanticide, temple prostitution and sex slavery, etc.) with Christianity. Judaism (which Christianity comes out of), Islam, Buddhism, and others have also contributed to goodness in the world.
I write often about the failures of institutional Christianity, and we must be honest about that, but we also have to be honest about the good parts too. Christianity has produced both Ebenezer Baptist Church and Westboro Baptist Church. Modern Christians have a choice to make between these two paths and I'm encouraging us to choose the path of Jesus.
Thank you for your response! I understand that and agree that we we've done a lot of good, it just struck me wrong that it was such a sweeping statement (as I am prone to prickling at) and seemingly so rooted in the lens of Europe and the near east, especially when pagan so often means any and all other religions. When his narrative is Christianity bringing morality to the masses, I can't help but hear it echoing so closely every historical argument for European empire and colony. When our current state is such that it is, I think its important that actions should speak louder than any proclamation of virtue.
As to the present, I can only choose the right path as often as possible, and to acknowledge others who are and always have been in the vocation of good-doing.
I hadn't originally read Zahnd's quote the way you took it, but I can definitely understand your concern after a re-read. I have not the read book either. I can vouch that we do not believe that only Christians can do good things in the world (which sounds crazy to me as I type it but I know a lot of people who believe this!), and that we are attempting to separate ourselves as much as humanly possible from empire, colonialism, domination, etc.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses! They are welcomed and appreciated here.
These are great points and I really appreciate you bringing them up. We have to push back on supremacy of all kinds, including Christian supremacy, anytime we can. Thanks, ChantzA!
Over the years, I have seen God occupying a collaboration space rather than intervention. For those who need the scriptural basis for this line of thought, check out Job, Lamentations, and Ezekial.
Hi Zach, thanks for taking the time to write on this subject. I'll be honest, this is the one issue that I struggle most with in my faith. I agree with your response to option 2. This is certainly not the God I read about in the Bible. However, I can't fully accept your 3rd option. Yes, a lot of pain and suffering in the world is down to our choices, and the way in which the sinful choices we make cause, either directly or indirectly, pain and suffering in others.
However, a lot of suffering happens in the world which is not caused by sin. Natural disasters (earthquakes, tsunamis etc), disease (cancer, severe infections) for example. Or accidents where there doesn’t seem to be any fault or intentional harm (some RTCs, gas explosions aircraft disasters etc).
I work in a Paediatric Intensive Care Unit and I see a huge amount of pain, suffering and even death, which is not due to human choice or sin. Why does God allow cancer in children? Or ovarian cancer in young women? Why are children born with lethal congenital conditions?
The usual answer to this is that we are living in a fallen world. God created it to be perfect (Eden), but when sin entered all that changed. This view relies upon a literal interpretation of Genesis, but the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly against this interpretation.
If the world was created through an evolutionary process then death has always been a part of life. And things like bacteria, viruses, congenital defects and the suffering which goes along with these has always been with us, and therefore have been allowed by God. I would even argue that this is how God created the world.
So, I'm not sure there is an answer to pain and suffering on the world. Thomas Oord expands on your option 1 in his book 'God Can't'. Some of this makes sense to me, but I also struggle with some of his views. I'm not sure there is an answer, but I also have not found any alternative other than to keep trusting in God and his faithfulness.
I really appreciate this, Jeff. It's one of those things that has haunted humanity for thousands of years because there aren't easy answers to it. I'm grateful for the opportunity to learn from each other about it.
I believe that God respects peoples decision. Second Kings dhows us that the king violated the laws of God, the people suffered; when the king obeyed God’s laws, the people prospered. The Lord gives us clear guidance, but if we choose to ignore or disobey it, He allows the consequence of our decision to correct us. Consequences are great teachers.
Consequences are the best teachers indeed.
I believe this is the correct answer, but I’ve never heard it satisfyingly extended to non-human-caused suffering. The most I hear is “viruses and cancer and hurricanes and dementia exist because adam and eve ate the apple”, and I really feel like a reasonable response to that is: why were those things a consequence? They don’t follow causally, which to me means it was a choice made by God. Why did he make viruses? Why do our minds break? Why do our pets get sick?
I don't think we can draw a straight line from Eve to cancer and hurricanes, especially since I believe the story of Adam and Eve is meant to be a non-literal representation of humanity's propensity to choose our own way rather than God's. And since we all choose our own way to some extent (some more than others), the world and everything in it are decaying--our bodies included.
I struggle with this, too, Ryan.
Thanks for the responses, I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. As a physicist we study the universe pretty matter-of-factly, but there are things like “entropy” that feel weirdly direct in a metaphysical way. “The amount of disorder can only increase, always”. That feels like what we mean when you say we live in a decaying world. I wonder if it was like this when it was created, or if it “fell” at some point, and if God’s plan is to change that completely in the end.
I think you’d enjoy Thomas J Oord. He discusses this very topic in his book Death of omnipotence. He doesn’t believe God is all powerful, but rather all loving which is why he can’t just over power and over rule everything, everyone, and every situation. It’s not that he chooses to withhold his power. It’s that he can’t do anything unloving, like go against our free will to make decisions. Anyways, it’s an interesting concept and something to make you think!
Tom is great and has become a friend! I've read a bunch of his stuff and we end up diverging a little bit in how we try to explain it, but I completely agree with his proposition that love is God's central characteristic. I'm grateful for him and his work.
Yes... that gift of freedom to choose? Its as terrifying as it is awesome...
Agreed.
This post really resonated with me Zach! My Bible study group just finished studying through The Sermon on the Mount (your series and the Bible Project series played prominent roles!), and the way Jesus ends the Sermon seems to be exactly what you're talking about. There are two ways/paths/roads you can choose to take, one leads to life, he's not talking about heaven, but the kind of Spirit-empowered life he describes in the Sermon and lives out in his own life; and one that leads to destruction, not what we think of as hell, but ruin, pain, and the destruction of shalom. There are two kinds of trees to be seen, one that produces good fruit which leads to right relationships and flourishing life for all, the Fruit of the Spirit, and one that produces rotten fruit, the antithesis of the Fruit of the Spirit, oppression, greed, hate, the devaluing of people and flourishing life for few. And there are two houses one can build, one built on the solid foundation of the way of Jesus; love, compassion, justice, generosity, peace, which will stand because it is Spirit-empowered and leads to God's shalom, and one that is built on the crumbling foundation of selfishness, greed, power-seeking, and oppression which leads to chaos and the destruction of shalom. If God has chosen to "rule and reign" in his creation THROUGH image-bearing humanity (Genesis 1 and 2), then these choices are of paramount importance and they have consequences, as we see throughout the biblical story. Thank you for your voice and your encouragement. You are a voice I can trust to always point me toward the Way of Jesus!
This is SO good, Amy! I love how diligent you and your Bible study group are with your exploration of Scripture and the Way of Jesus. It inspires me!
My Friend, you speak my mind on this. The old, old saw applies. "We are God's hands and God's voice." If we fail to follow the Spirit's lead in all things, the fault is with us. Because God always offers us the grace and the gifts to do what needs to be done.
Zach - I really like your point about “subverting” worldly power. The idea of helping to mend the world is also a reflection of God’s creativity I believe. Takes so much more to put the works back together than to simply burn it all down.
Yes! Well said, man.
This is a very interesting breakdown on the subject of free-will. I do think this is a valid point. The only question I would have regarding God being all powerful is not why does he let people do bad things to other people(this is the free-will part although the people being hurt did not choose the consequences of others actions), but if God is all powerful and can use that power to create why does he allow people/children especially, to die of diseases like cancer. If he is all powerful and chooses to not only heal said humans but allows them to become sick to begin with where is his goodness and compassion?
It's a fair question. I think God causing any human behavior (making someone do good or preventing someone from doing bad) would be a violation of how God has setup the world--how God let's us all choose.
I don’t think there’s much comfort in it but could the image of the sacrificial lamb be aligned with innocents suffering? “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us…”Could it be that human suffering ultimately takes away the sins of the world in ways only God can see? But, suffering,witnessed by others, shifts our view and brings about his kingdom in ways that we find hard to measure?
Powerful!!! Thank you Zack
So good/ thanks Zach! Self reliant power breaks… God reliant power fixes.
Zach...great article as always. It reminded me of a period of time when I needed certainty the most and came across a book about God's sovereignty. I was unlearned and naive, and didn't realize there were different types of thought within the Christian church. This was pure Calvinism, but I didn't know that. In this book, every single thing that happens in only through God's perfect will, so even horrible tragedies had a specific purpose...whether only happened because God suddenly allowed a raindrop, etc. It actually made me feel safer for awhile. But it was a trick of the mind. It's so weird to think about that now.
I've read books like that too. In fact, I believed them for awhile, but that all changed when I had to counsel people going through some of the most difficult things imaginable. At that point, it became untenable to tell people "God caused this" because I just didn't believe it anymore.
Me too.
I applaud your logic and reasoning. Thank you my brother in Christ. I always appreciate your insight and wisdom and share it as best as I can. A true “Shalom” to you.
Thanks so much, Kathleen!
Of course I enjoy your posts!
Years ago I heard it explained like this…as a parent you are in charge of your kids but are you in control? Can you control how they behave in public or the choices they make when they are away from you? No. But you are in charge - meaning you’re involved in their lives, you want the best for them, you work to teach them and hold them accountable for their choices and actions but you cannot control what they do. This idea has really helped me make sense of the world and my own life. Thank you for digging into this even deeper.
We need to grasp this truth otherwise we attribute to God that which was never meant to be associated with him. We justify our bad behavior and apathy because we think wrongly and write everything off as “God’s perfect plan”. It’s so frustrating.
Thank you for this insight, it's always nice to hear perspectives on our agency in this world, because its always a struggle to square.
I cannot help but take great umbrage with the excerpt you shared of Brian Zahnd, however. That notion that we are solely responsible for morality and of Christian exceptionalism comes off at best painfully pessimistic on human nature, and myopic and racist at worse. There is such a variety of beliefs around the world, many older than Christianity, and it is absurd to state that only ours teaches compassion and morality. At our best and as individuals, we are agents for good certainly, but so often when Christianity has manifested as institutional power, from the crusades 1200 years ago to the modern American state, faith has been wielded as a club for oppression and consolidation, and as a shield against retribution. I cannot know from the excerpt whether any of this is addressed, or nuance given to these beliefs, but it's disappointing to take his world view at face value.
I hear your pushback, but it's important to note that Zahnd is contrasting early forms of pagan religion (which frequently centered worship on things like human sacrifice to appease gods, infanticide, temple prostitution and sex slavery, etc.) with Christianity. Judaism (which Christianity comes out of), Islam, Buddhism, and others have also contributed to goodness in the world.
I write often about the failures of institutional Christianity, and we must be honest about that, but we also have to be honest about the good parts too. Christianity has produced both Ebenezer Baptist Church and Westboro Baptist Church. Modern Christians have a choice to make between these two paths and I'm encouraging us to choose the path of Jesus.
Thank you for your response! I understand that and agree that we we've done a lot of good, it just struck me wrong that it was such a sweeping statement (as I am prone to prickling at) and seemingly so rooted in the lens of Europe and the near east, especially when pagan so often means any and all other religions. When his narrative is Christianity bringing morality to the masses, I can't help but hear it echoing so closely every historical argument for European empire and colony. When our current state is such that it is, I think its important that actions should speak louder than any proclamation of virtue.
As to the present, I can only choose the right path as often as possible, and to acknowledge others who are and always have been in the vocation of good-doing.
I hadn't originally read Zahnd's quote the way you took it, but I can definitely understand your concern after a re-read. I have not the read book either. I can vouch that we do not believe that only Christians can do good things in the world (which sounds crazy to me as I type it but I know a lot of people who believe this!), and that we are attempting to separate ourselves as much as humanly possible from empire, colonialism, domination, etc.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses! They are welcomed and appreciated here.
These are great points and I really appreciate you bringing them up. We have to push back on supremacy of all kinds, including Christian supremacy, anytime we can. Thanks, ChantzA!
Over the years, I have seen God occupying a collaboration space rather than intervention. For those who need the scriptural basis for this line of thought, check out Job, Lamentations, and Ezekial.
Hi Zach, thanks for taking the time to write on this subject. I'll be honest, this is the one issue that I struggle most with in my faith. I agree with your response to option 2. This is certainly not the God I read about in the Bible. However, I can't fully accept your 3rd option. Yes, a lot of pain and suffering in the world is down to our choices, and the way in which the sinful choices we make cause, either directly or indirectly, pain and suffering in others.
However, a lot of suffering happens in the world which is not caused by sin. Natural disasters (earthquakes, tsunamis etc), disease (cancer, severe infections) for example. Or accidents where there doesn’t seem to be any fault or intentional harm (some RTCs, gas explosions aircraft disasters etc).
I work in a Paediatric Intensive Care Unit and I see a huge amount of pain, suffering and even death, which is not due to human choice or sin. Why does God allow cancer in children? Or ovarian cancer in young women? Why are children born with lethal congenital conditions?
The usual answer to this is that we are living in a fallen world. God created it to be perfect (Eden), but when sin entered all that changed. This view relies upon a literal interpretation of Genesis, but the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly against this interpretation.
If the world was created through an evolutionary process then death has always been a part of life. And things like bacteria, viruses, congenital defects and the suffering which goes along with these has always been with us, and therefore have been allowed by God. I would even argue that this is how God created the world.
So, I'm not sure there is an answer to pain and suffering on the world. Thomas Oord expands on your option 1 in his book 'God Can't'. Some of this makes sense to me, but I also struggle with some of his views. I'm not sure there is an answer, but I also have not found any alternative other than to keep trusting in God and his faithfulness.
I really appreciate this, Jeff. It's one of those things that has haunted humanity for thousands of years because there aren't easy answers to it. I'm grateful for the opportunity to learn from each other about it.